‘Only Political Hindus Are Happy’: Shankaracharya on Ayodhya Ram Temple Consecration

[Amid the buzz around the consecration of Ram Temple in Ayodhya on January 22 by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, Karan Thapar interviewed the Shankaracharya of Jyotish Peeth, Swami Avimukteshwaranand Saraswati. All four Shankaracharyas have noted their objection to the consecration, underscoring that Hindu Shastras do not permit performing the consecration of a deity in an incomplete temple. They also noted that January 22 falls in the lunar month of Paus, which is inauspicious for the ceremony.

His disappointment is palpable in the interview and Swami Avimukteshwaranand Saraswati says only “political Hindus” are happy with the consecration, not the scores of “religious Hindus”. In the 40-minute interview, he covers a lot of ground, highlighting the issues concerning the politicisation of a religious event.

The following is a full transcript of the interview, edited lightly for style, clarity, and syntax. Sentences in Hindi have been translated. The translation and transcription has been done by Sagarika Chaudhary.]

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Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to a special interview for The Wire. With exactly a week left for the Pran Pratishtha of the Ram Temple in Ayodhya. We have a very special guest today. He is the Shankaracharya of Jyotish Peeth, Swami Avimukteshwaranand Saraswati. Swami Ji, thank you very much for agreeing to give me this interview. I hope you will forgive me if I ask you questions in English, it’s the language I speak much better. Let me start with the obvious question.

Why have you refused the invitation to the Pran Pratishtha of the Ram Mandir in Ayodhya on the 22nd of January?

Swami Avimukteshwaranand Saraswati: See, I have not refused any invitation. The truth is, that we have not been invited so far.

KT: You have not received the invitation up till now?

Swami AS: Yes. That is why no one can accuse us of refusing any invitation.

KT: What can be the reason behind them not having sent an invitation to you till now?

Swami AS: This is a question that should be posed to those distributing the invitations, about why they have not sent one.

KT: Have they not sent an invitation to only you or have the other three Shankracharyas not received one, either?

Swami AS: I can’t say anything about them, but I can about myself, which is what I am telling you.

KT: Do you see this as an insult?

Swami AS: I can’t say. Only the Trust can say what its thoughts are. We have done our bit for the establishment of the temple at Lord Ram’s birthplace and we are satisfied with that.

KT: Were you expecting to be invited? Are you upset that you’re not invited?

Swami AS: The truth is that we have no expectation or wish to be invited. Even if we had been invited, we would not have gone.

KT: Can you explain why you would not have gone?

Swami AS: We can’t go because if something against the scriptures happens in front of the Shankaracharya, that cannot be accepted. We want all religious activities to take place according to the scriptures, because God has said.

[Sanskrit shloka] The Shrutis and Smritis, which are the scriptures, which contain the correct way of performing religious activities, God says these are my commands, what to do and what not to do. And he who does not adhere to these commands is not loved by me, even if he is my devotee. He also says that those who disobey these commandments and do what they want instead, cannot gain enlightenment and success. [Sanskrit shloka] This means that our scriptures and God have commanded that one should work according to the commandments and not do anything opposing that.

KT: Swami Ji, one of your videos has gone viral, wherein you say that, “I am not anti-Modi, but I cannot be anti-Dharmashastra either.” Is this what you’ve been trying to explain?

Swami AS: Yes, it is this very thing that I have been explaining, and I used the term ‘anti-Modi’ there because that was the context. It is mandatory for me to adhere to the scriptures and I would want religious proceedings to take place in the right way when I am present.

That is, only if it is a religious proceeding. However, if not, then it is not my jurisdiction and then, I will not say anything.

KT: Up till now, the Ram Mandir being built in Ayodhya is not yet complete. Even the shikhar of the temple has not been built. Do the scriptures say that the Pran Pratishtha of a temple cannot happen if the temple is incomplete and unfinished?

Swami AS: All our scriptures have clearly said that the temple is the body of God and the idol is the soul. So the temple is the body and the kalash is the head. So right now, the shikhar is not yet built.

The way our body is built from head to toe, God’s body is symbolised by the temple. In the body, the head, the eyes, the mouth remain incomplete because the shikhar is not built.

So, in such a state, when the head has not been built, how can you place the soul inside the body? This would be a dire mistake, not one that has a solution.

KT: In the newspapers, I have read that the garb griha is ready. When that is the case, can we have the Pran Pratishtha?

Swami AS: The garb griha essentially means almost like the womb of the mother is ready. Even if there is life in the womb, it is not revealed to us. It will take nine months.

Then, his hands and legs will be formed, Then he will gain sense, and only after nine months when his body is fully formed will he come out so that people can see him.

So, the garb griha is ready, so the baby has been conceived, but the body has not been formed. Till the body is formed, the Pran Pratishtha cannot take place.

KT: I have read another thing which states that the 22nd of January is an auspicious occasion for the inauguration of the temple. Do you agree with this?

Swami AS: If it is auspicious, then there are about 100 crore Hindus or Sanatanis in India and they all have a calendar to determine auspiciousness because 80% of people believe in the importance of choosing an auspicious day for most activities.

This is why we buy a Hindu calendar, even though the Gregorian calendar is used more now. Even then, people believe in auspicious days, festivals, etc., and buy the Hindu calendar for them.

The calendar has all auspicious days in it which say what activity should be done when, including temple building, weddings, etc. I want to see one calendar in India which has printed 22nd January as the right day to do the Pran Pratishtha.

Have all the priests who bear the responsibility of making the calendar not been able to see the auspiciousness of this date, and only one person has been able to? Why has no one else been able to see it?

If the date was so auspicious that the Lord Ram who took 500 years to build could be placed in the temple, why did the priests not catch on and print about this day in the calendar?

I have checked on 10-15 calendars personally and consulted with multiple people who say that it is not mentioned that this day is very auspicious for the Pran Pratishtha.

The priest who has deemed this auspicious is from Kashi, and he is wise. We all respect him. In one of his interviews, he said that he has been asked to deem an auspicious day in January.

KT: He was asked to do so?

Swami AS: This is what he has accepted.

KT: So in a way, he was ordered to name a day in January?

Swami AS: Yes, he said that I was told to name a day in January, so I named this one, whichever day seemed right in January. This means that someone had prompted him to name a day in this timeframe.

So in it, whatever seemed right is what he told them. So I don’t think the priest is at fault because he was given a time frame, and in it, he named the day he thought was best.

KT: After I listen to you, I can understand why you are reluctant to go. Even if you had been invited, I can understand why you would not want to be present. Is it also true–

Swami AS: No, if I received an invitation, I would have gone to Ayodhya but not taken part in the temple activities, so the invitation could be respected because if you receive an invitation from God,so our learning doesn’t say we should refuse it, so we would have gone till there–

KT: Till Ayodhya?

Swami AS: Till Ayodhya to say that we have accepted your invitation but we cannot be part of the proceedings because we cannot see something unlawful happen in front of us.

KT: It’s reported in the papers that the Shankracharyas of Puri, Dwarka and Shangeri are also not going, can you confirm that?

Swami AS: Yes, neither of us are going.

KT: All four of the Shankaracharyas are not going?

Swami AS: Based on my knowledge up till now, no one. Who can say what might happen in the future?

KT: Only seven days are left, Shankaracharya ji, in seven days people’s thoughts and feelings won’t change.

Swami AS: Things can change in a matter of seconds, but according to the situation now, no one is going.

KT: Based on the situation right now, all four Shankaracharyas are not going?

Swami AS: No, they are not going.

KT: There is no doubt that when the Pran Pratishtha happens, the central person at it will be Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

The Shankaracharya of Puri has said the following about this, I will read it for you:

Our scriptures have clearly mentioned who can touch the idol. What will I do there during the consecration? The PM will touch the idol. I can’t stand there and clap to applaud him. I know the dignity of my position, this is not ego.

Do you share those views?

Swami AS: Yes, absolutely. He is right. Their words can be different, but what they mean is that the rules are not being followed which is why it is not right for us to be there. He is also calling it unlawful.

We will not be able to stop it because there will be external pressures there and in such a situation, it is better to not go, which is what he means.

KT: And all four of you hold this position?

Swami AS: It is natural. All our scriptures are the same, we are different only in terms of area, our rules are the same.

KT: There is an impression in the country that the Pran Pratishtha has become political rather than religious. How do you view this?

Swami AS: The entire discussion around the temple is political, it has ceased to be religious. If it was about religion, we would have been consulted.

Firstly, a trust of the Dharmacharyas called the Ramalyaya Trust had already existed. In 1997 when the land around the temple came to be contested, the Supreme Court said there would be proceedings.

In the proceedings, whoever wins, be it the Hindus or the Muslims, will be given the land for establishing their place of worship.

The earlier Trust was discarded by the Supreme Court in place of which the Ramalyay Trust was established in case the Hindus won the land. Despite that, the Prime Minister established a Trust of his own workers which he announced in the Parliament. It was clear that a temple was to be built which means that the primary role is of the Dharmacharyas since they are men of God.

In such a situation, they should be held responsible since it’s a religious act. But instead of doing that which would have been right.

When the Congress government was here, then Narasimha Rao was the Prime Minister who said that we should make the trust after the Court ordered. He didn’t make one on his own.

He could’ve made his own Trust if he wanted, but he didn’t. Modi did. All the important priests were included in the Trust, but he removed that and put Party workers in place of them. It became clear at that moment that religion will be overlooked in this.

And that overlooking has been going on since then, because no one was consulted and their suggestions were not asked for in the building of the temple. They have never spoken to anyone.

KT: The priests have never been consulted?

Swami AS: And not just that, even in the Pran Pratishtha they did not consult us, and did everything, telling everyone that we are doing everything right.This is the important thing.

KT: You’re talking, Shankaracharya ji, about how politics and politicians have interfered in the building of the temple. The Shankaracharya of Puri has said in Bengal on Saturday, which came in The Hindu newspaper and I will read out to you:

Politicians have their limits and they have responsibilities under the constitution. There are rules and restrictions in the religious and spiritual domain, and these rules should be followed. Interference in every area by politicians is insanity. Overstepping these rules for propagating one man’s name is an act of rebellion against God.

Do you agree with this thought?

Swami AS: I fully agree. I agree 100% because our thoughts have been expressed perfectly by the Shankaracharya at Puri. I would like to add further to clarify that everyone has a limit, not just politicians. If I start interfering in politics, I will also be crossing my limit, and in the same way, politicians should not interfere in religion. Both should understand their limits and remain in them apart from occasionally helping each other. This is a religion where Dharmacharyas will be important and no other man can be more important, this is clear. This is something that needs to be made clear right now at the holy land of Lord Ram’s birthplace because it can potentially become harmful to the Hindu religion and people will start insulting the scriptures because of it.

KT: But the words used by the Shankaracharya of Puri are very powerful. He says politicians have their limits and interfering in every area by politicians is insanity. And then he says overstepping these rules for propagating one man’s name is an act of rebellion against God. I think that the Shankaracharya of Puri is referring to Mr. Modi.

Swami AS: This is not a hidden statement, everyone can understand what it means. The truth is that one can only see Mr. Modi everywhere.

KT: To you, too?

Swami AS: To everyone. It’s not a hidden fact that one man is running everything.

KT: Then tell me this, Shankaracharya Ji, are you worried that the Ram Temple has been politicised and that the Pran Pratishtha has a lot of political propaganda surrounding it? And this could end up dividing India rather than uniting India.

Swami AS: Yes, that is the worry. The concern is that they are being divisive. They are dividing the religious Hindus and the politicised Hindus, and the representative you have chosen doesn’t consult the priests who understand the religion.

This sort of divisive sentiment is coming from the person who is responsible for not just uniting the Hindus of India, but India as a whole by some means.

Someone had said that this is a national temple which is being constructed. Is this how you will make a national temple? You should have united all Indians regardless of religion, but you have managed to divide the Hindus themselves.

KT: In Hinduism, Lord Ram is the Maryada Purushottam, or the ideal, most righteous man, how would he view what is happening in his name in the Pran Pratishtha?

Swami AS: This is the matter. Bringing Ram is not bringing his idol, it means bringing his righteousness, his ideals, his justice, his sacrifice, his love for his home and his people, that is when he will arrive. Lanka was made of gold, but he did not visit despite Vibhashan begging him after his victory.

He said Lanka might be of gold, but I don’t like it because my birthplace Ayodhya is what I love the most and where I want to return.

All the riches pale in comparison to that home. If we don’t learn Ram’s teachings, then what is the point of bringing Ram to Ayodhya? We want people to learn his teachings, that kingdom is nothing compared to your word, or goodness. If these teachings are not being transferred, then our temples are a waste.

KT: I understand. Tell me this, Shankaracharya jI, the Ayodhya temple is being built. Do you think there should be similar temples made in place of mosques in Kashi and Mathura?

Swami AS: Yes, I am in favour of that. I believe that we are living in one nation and any points of tension should be solved immediately. It is true that in some places, for various reasons, there is contestation, but we want to solve these problems.

So that there is no animosity between two religions and in that, religious places can play a big role in that harmony by returning them to who they originally belonged to, In the 1950s manifesto by Dharam Samrat for Ram Rajya Parishad wrote that if they get elected, they will ensure that all places captured by Hndus which belonged to the Muslims and vice versa would be given back to their original inhabitants.

KT: If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that a Hindu temple in place of mosques in Kashi and Mathura is essential and important, it must happen, but should we keep going further and further? Do we want to identify mosques built on temples and demolish them or is it a full stop after Kashi and Mathura?

Swami AS: We can only know this through discussion which we have tried. After the Supreme Court said it, the Hindus and Muslims tried to talk things through and it benefitted us by making the Muslim folk realise that fighting will not amount to anything.

Before the Court announced its decision, we reached a compromise with the Muslims (The Sunni central board) where they agreed to take back any claims on the Babri Masjid. And after this was submitted to the court did the decision come out.

Had we not reached this agreement, the verdict would not have been this. Since the Muslims had let go of claims, then the Supreme Court gave this verdict. This happened only through discussion, as all problems can be solved through it.

If we continue harbouring animosity, then some men can satisfy their egos but the rest of society suffers. I believe that wise Muslims should also come forward to end these fights through dialogue for the long-term well-being of the country.

KT: Shankaracharya Ji, the interview you are giving me will be seen by BJP leaders, BJP ministers, and I don’t know, but possibly, the Prime Minister might see it. The BJP has said that the person introducing politics into the Ram Mandir is yourself and perhaps the other Shankaracharya. Fake claims about you are being made online. It is said that you have visited the Ajmer Sharif Dargah to spread a chaadar. How do you respond to this treatment of yourself by the BJP?

You are a shankaracharya, one of the four great swamis of the Hindu faith, How do you feel about the government saying that you are politicising matters and fake stories are being spread about you online?

Swami AS: The thing is, that till now I have never been able to visit the city of Ajmer at all. When I haven’t been to the city, how will I go to Ajmer Sharif?

I have planned to go to each district of Rajasthan so I will go to Ajmer but till now I haven’t been able to go, so reaching the dargah is not possible. Even if I do go to a dargah for some reason, I will not become a Muslim. I will not be praying to Allah. You will have to see why I went. So, our PM who people consider to be a bigger Hindu than the Shankaracharyas. In Champat Rai’s words he is Lord Vishnu himself. Does he not go to dargahs?

I have seen his videos. He sends and spreads chaadars to various dargahs. So just by being there, did Narendra Modi ji become a Muslim? You can’t say that.

Similarly, if the shankaracharya goes to some place then accusing him so quickly is a way of propaganda and destroying his image. I have only ever known this saint called Ramdev Pir whose devotee Arvind came to show support for our movement for the protection of the Ram Setu and then invited us to his ashram, where the samadhi of the pir is, I, along with the Shankaracharya of puri and another renowned priest went there, which are the images being circulated.

KT: The BJP also says that you are a Congress supporter. How do you view that?

Swami AS: Anyone can say baseless things, Proof is needed for substantiation. Show me proof of me ever becoming a part of the party, fighting an election from their side or promoting the party. The truth is that they are not BJP or Congress, but mere opportunists.

An example is that they also called my guruji a Congress supporter, when in reality, they’re the Congress. In 1992, Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHD) joined with the Congress party to make Narasimha Rao the PM. Boota Singh was the Home Minister and Dawood Dyal quit the Congress to join VHP where they caused issues near the contested land.

You must have visited and covered it. When my guruji opposed it by saying it was wrong, he was called pro-Congress when we were protesting their actions while the Vishwa Hindu Parishad had joined with them. He is the person who proposed that the temple should be built in Ayodhya not 150kms far by giving examples of Kashi and Mathura. That is his contribution and he fought with the Court. No one went to the court, but he did.

No one went to court because the BJP was saying that the court could not interfere in religious matters, but he promoted going to court and won. We are letting them build the temple, but at least they should obey the scriptures. Do we not have the right to say that much in our religion?

KT: Shankaracharya Ji, my last question, in this interview, your innermost sadness will be clear to the audience. This is the time when every Hindu should have been celebrating with happiness but instead the shankaracharyas are unhappy. Instead of happiness, this is a sad moment for you..

Swami AS: Not only for us, but for many Hindus like us who care about religion and not politics. The President of the BJP, Amit Shah ji said that he collected 10-15 crore people by missed calls in the BJP, which becomes 22 crores if you combine the RSS. Then, there are other small factions who would amount to a total of 25-30 crores. Out of 100 crore Hindus, even if 25 crore is with them, the remaining 75 crore are religious Hindus and not political Hindus who stay away from dirty politics. That 75 crore is unhappy because they respect the scriptures.

Only the politicised Hindus are happy, the religious Hindus are unhappy because we want the PM to decide and shift the date to a further one so that the temple is completed and can be established according to the scriptures, so everyone is happy.

KT: That is your message to the Prime Minister?

Swami AS: Yes, I want to request him and say that if someone has said this is a way of opposing you, then that is untrue. We want a PM who makes good decisions. You are a good orator, if you obey the scriptures,and don’t become tyrannical, then you are a good leader.

In Varanasi when they broke important, ancient temples, we did have a saint contest elections against him. We hate Aurangzeb because we were told he broke temples, then why will we forgive one of our own to do it?

KT: Are you talking about the Kashi corridor?

Swami AS: When building the Kashi corridor, when they broke temples and idols we opposed them and would like to say that we will do it again if this happens again.But, I am not anti-Modi because there is no father in the country who has never yelled at his son for his mistakes. If he learns from those mistakes, everything is okay. We are only opposing your mistakes.

KT: Shankaracharya ji, you are saying to Mr. Modi as if he was your son, to postpone the Pram Pratishtha, this is not the right time, this is not the right day, wait for the temple to be completed, then do it according to the scriptures? Don’t do it now?

Swami AS: Yes, and by doing so, people will praise you more for obeying the scriptures, you will not be humiliated.

KT: Shankaracharya Ji, thank you very much for this interview.

Swami AS: Thank you to you, too for giving me the opportunity to clarify my points.

(Courtesy: The Wire.)